Author Topic: Earning XP  (Read 2082 times)

CYMRO

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Earning XP
« on: December 04, 2006, 01:22:21 AM »
Challenge Ratings and standard d20 experience awards are unworkable in  a levelless system, so here is what I have come up with, tailored to my Star proposal.


1.  Experience points earned from combat equal successful damage dealt to an opponent plus the damage resisted by your DR.

2.  Experience points earned from successful skill check equals Ranks in skill plus 5.

3.  Experience points earned from healing others equals wound/vitality/mortivity points restored.

4.  Experience points from successful defensive opposed rolls equals 10 plus Ranks in skill (if any).

5. Experience points earned from successful Arcane or Tech Checks equals (100 - Target DC)/5, round down, minimum 1.

6. Experience points earned from successful grapple checks and successful grapple breaks equals 5 plus Strength and Reflex modifiers.

« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 05:56:52 PM by CYMRO'S CABBAGE CAVALCA »

SDragon

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« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2006, 09:24:08 AM »
on the second one, i'm not entirely sure why you chose reflex for the multiplier. from what i understand, a bard3 gets 33 XP for a successful diplomacy check, wheras a barbarian3 only get 11 for a successful intimidate check. is there a reason for this?
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Before you accept advice from this post, remember that the poster has 0 ranks in knowledge (the hell I'm talking about)

CYMRO

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« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2006, 10:00:05 AM »
Quote from: sdragon1984- the S is for penguin

on the second one, i'm not entirely sure why you chose reflex for the multiplier. from what i understand, a bard3 gets 33 XP for a successful diplomacy check, wheras a barbarian3 only get 11 for a successful intimidate check. is there a reason for this?


Well, in a classless system, the designations of bard and barbarian have no mechanical meaning.
And either a diplomacy or an intimidate check's xp would be entirely rank dependent.
This also means no artificial Rank limits on a skill.  You can pump as many ranks into a skill as you have XP to spend on those ranks.
So, a character with zero ranks in Intimidate could make a successful check, but not earn XP.

Thanuir

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« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2006, 10:42:46 AM »
If this is supposed to reward for facing primarily combat challenges, it kind of works. Players are still encouraged to take on easy challenges, where success is more likely. I would try factoring in the roll's difficulty somehow.

Now; why would the players not try to get as much skill checks going as possible (like, say, by sneaking around each other all day every day)?

CYMRO

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« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2006, 03:13:07 PM »
Quote from: Thanuir


Now; why would the players not try to get as much skill checks going as possible (like, say, by sneaking around each other all day every day)?


Well, no ranks in a skill means no XP for a check.
Otherwise, the possible abuse can only be curbed by GM adjudication.  

CYMRO

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« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2006, 10:51:09 PM »
Quote from: Thanuir

 I would try factoring in the roll's difficulty somehow.



No keen ideas on implementation of this occur at this time.  I am open to suggestions.

snakefing

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« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2006, 09:34:11 AM »
If it was D20-like, you could make things dependent on the DC of the check. If I recall, you're using a d100 roll-high scheme, right? In which case, use the (Target Number)/5 as a base, before multiplying by your factor.

Personally, I'm not sure that direct formulas are even needed here. There are so many variables that need to be adjudicated by the GM anyway, I think maybe a qualitative classification system would be just as good.

[th]Classification[/th][th]XP base[/th][/tr]
[tr][th]Simple[/th][td]0[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]Basic[/th][td]20[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]Normal[/th][td]50[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]Difficult[/th][td]150[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]Extreme[/th][td]500[/td][/tr]
[/table]

Base would be adjusted or multiplied for various factors. Numbers here are purely for example - they'd need to be changed to reflect the actual scale of XP.

The combat, save, etc. would be ranked relative to the character's existing skill levels, equipment, and so on; based on GM's judgment of how difficult the challenge actually was rather than some abstract measure of theoretical difficulty.
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CYMRO

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« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2006, 09:56:26 AM »
Quote
If I recall, you're using a d100 roll-high scheme, right? In which case, use the (Target Number)/5 as a base, before multiplying by your factor.


Actually, it is roll low.


Poseptune

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« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2006, 10:26:49 AM »
Quote from: CYMRO'S CABBAGE CAVALCADE

2.  Experience points earned from successful skill check equals Ranks in skill plus 5, then multiply by one€„¢s  Reflex Modifier.

Negative and zero ability modifiers are treated as a .5 modifier for the purposes of calculating experience awards.


Quote from: CYMRO'S CABBAGE CAVALCADE

So, a character with zero ranks in Intimidate could make a successful check, but not earn XP.


Quote from: CYMRO'S CABBAGE CAVALCADE

Well, no ranks in a skill means no XP for a check.


Zero ranks + 5 x Reflex Modifier = 5 x Reflex Modifier

5 x Reflex Modifier (minimum 2.5) =/= 0

Unless my math is off somewhere.

Which is it?

This experience system is an optimizer's dream. Though for anyone that wants to be skillful they have to have a decent Reflex Modifier, even when using Strength based skills, or intelligence based skills.

"I just remembered that this monster is afraid of fire. Darn I could have learned more (gained more experience) if only I were more nimble and not so smart."

"There you are all healed, but I didn't learn as much as I could have if I was healthier (Toughness)"

"Ha I avoided that monsters attack in my swashbuckling ways, too bad I wasn't stronger."

With this system it would seem that players would have to optimize there characters, or take massive experience penalties. Someone who wants to play the thin, not so tough healer type will be surpassed by anyone who plays a character with a decent toughness score.

Example:
Player 1 has a Toughness modifier of 0
Player 2 has a Toughness modifier of +3

Player 1 heals someone for 10 vitality points earning 5 xp
Player 2 not as skilled in healing as player 1 can only heal 5 vitality points, but earns 15 xp

The same goes for someone who wants to play a swashbuckling type character over a brawny fighter and so on and so forth.
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snakefing

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« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2006, 10:50:50 AM »
Okay, then hard tasks will have low target numbers, so you might use (100-Target Number)/5. Or just use 5 + (Difficulty Modifier)/5, where the modifier is whatever reflects the difficulty of the task.

Not sure of the scaling - but at least it is a possibility.

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CYMRO

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« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2006, 11:25:10 PM »
Quote
Zero ranks + 5 x Reflex Modifier = 5 x Reflex Modifier

5 x Reflex Modifier (minimum 2.5) =/= 0

Unless my math is off somewhere.

Which is it?


You have to have ranks in a skill to earn xp from a skill check.  The 0 or negative ability modifier is the ability score modifier.  
No ranks in a skill, no xp.
Low ability scores would have an impact on the experience, only if you had skill ranks to earn that xp.

And, as stated in the first post, different rules for opposed rolls.


Quote
This experience system is an optimizer's dream.


Absolutely.
Take what you want, only what you want.

And that optimization fancy makes NPCs fun to design.

Quote
Someone who wants to play the thin, not so tough healer type will be surpassed by anyone who plays a character with a decent toughness score.


Nothing stopping them.  Healers double dip anyway.  Heal checks earn xp for anyone with ranks in Heal; high Reflex score for higher xp.  Actual healing, through magic or medicine or whatnot, earns xp, wimpy healers take a slight hit to the xp here.  Pump up the reflex score to offset the RP need for the low Toughness score.



Quote

The same goes for someone who wants to play a swashbuckling type character over a brawny fighter and so on and so forth.


Again, the swashbuckling character will be making more skill checks in the course of RPing the character.  The swashbuckler swings from chandeliers(check), schmoozes people(check), and generally will be taking more advantage of the non-combat ways to earn xp.  The brawny fighter type will excel at earning xp from hitting things and getting hit.

CYMRO

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« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2006, 11:43:45 PM »
Quote from: snakefing

Okay, then hard tasks will have low target numbers, so you might use (100-Target Number)/5. Or just use 5 + (Difficulty Modifier)/5, where the modifier is whatever reflects the difficulty of the task.

Not sure of the scaling - but at least it is a possibility.



So you are saying:

(100-50{for an average DC})/5.
50/5=10.  
10 X (better than average Reflex Mod of +2)= 20 xp.
As an add-on, plus ranks in skill, for 25 xp for the character with 5 skill appropriate ranks.

Nice.  

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« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2006, 08:44:25 AM »
Quote from: CYMRO'S CABBAGE CAVALCADE


You have to have ranks in a skill to earn xp from a skill check.  The 0 or negative ability modifier is the ability score modifier.  
No ranks in a skill, no xp.
Low ability scores would have an impact on the experience, only if you had skill ranks to earn that xp.

And, as stated in the first post, different rules for opposed rolls.




Quote from: CYMRO'S CABBAGE CAVALCADE


2.  Experience points earned from successful skill check equals Ranks in skill plus 5, then multiply by one€„¢s  Reflex Modifier.



Ok, again I've bolded the part that contradicts what you are saying. I will do this one more time:
Assume ranks=0 and reflex modifier=2

Let's write the equation: (ranks +5) x reflex modifier
Now let's substitute values: (0 (ranks) +5 (constant)) x 2(reflex modifier)
Time to do the math: (0 +5) x 2 = 5 x 2 = 10 xp

So by doing the math based off your original post someone with 0 ranks in a skill can earn xp if they succeed on the skill check. Unless you are now saying that original post is correct with the exception that if a character hass 0 ranks in a skill they cannot earn xp from the check. If the latter is true (which is not stated), why? Why would a chracter learn nothing from trying something he did not previously know, but successfully  completed even if by luck or favorable circumstances.

Quote from: CYMRO'S CABBAGE CAVALCADE

Absolutely.
Take what you want, only what you want.

And that optimization fancy makes NPCs fun to design.


Let me just say I love the way you ingored the majority of my post and brushed it to the side when replying.

It is not only what you want it is what you need to keep up with other players
Fighters need to be strong and accurate
Skillful characters need to have a good reflex score
Healers need to be tough

If I wanted to play an intelligent skillful bookworm type character. Most of my skills are in knowledge, with a few in craft, and a couple other skills that are not Int based. Let's say he has the following abilities mods:  Accuracy +2, Reflex +0, Toughness +2, Strength +0 Intelligence +4 Wisdom +2.

So my main way of gain experience is negatively affected because my concept involves a non dexterous character. Now the swashbuckling character which you state will gain more experience by being skillful instead of being defensive, could earn more experience even though he spreads his points into combat and skills, where my bookworm concept focuses soley on skills.

Bookworm Reflex 0 Ranks in skill 10
Swashbuckler Reflex +4 Ranks in skill 4

Now using the forula we established earlier let's compare the two:

Bookworm = (10 (ranks) + 5) x .5 (reflex being 0) = 15 x 0.5 = 7.5 exp
Swashbuckler = (4 (ranks) +5) x 4 (reflex) = 9 x 4 = 36 exp

This system favors very specific characters. An agile skillful character would surpass the rest of the party the majority of the time. The only time it wouldn't is in a pure combat or combat heavy campaign.

as for the swashbuckler vs the brawny fighter. The swashbuckler is usually built to be defensive, but he will be surpassed by the stronger fighter only because the brawny fighter is stronger.


Quote from: CYMRO'S CABBAGE CAVALCADE

Quote
Someone who wants to play the thin, not so tough healer type will be surpassed by anyone who plays a character with a decent toughness score.


Nothing stopping them.  Healers double dip anyway.  Heal checks earn xp for anyone with ranks in Heal; high Reflex score for higher xp.  Actual healing, through magic or medicine or whatnot, earns xp, wimpy healers take a slight hit to the xp here.  Pump up the reflex score to offset the RP need for the low Toughness score.



So the healer has to be agile and tough which again is not the concept that I provided. Again players that want to earn xp has to make very specific characters.

The Strong and/or Accurate Fighter
The Agile Skillful character
The Tough and/or Agile Healer

I see no concept above involves intelligent or wise characters.
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CYMRO

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« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2006, 10:05:11 AM »
Quote
Let's write the equation: (ranks +5) x reflex modifier
Now let's substitute values: (0 (ranks) +5 (constant)) x 2(reflex modifier)
Time to do the math: (0 +5) x 2 = 5 x 2 = 10 xp


How much clearer can I make this, if you have 0 ranks, you are not eligible for xp for passing a skill check with that skill.  You ONLY get to calculate for xp if you have a minimum of 1 rank in that skill.  No ranks, no skill.  Is it that hard a concept?

So, you are doing the math wrong, because without skill ranks, there is no need to go any father with the math.  No contradictions.

Quote
why? Why would a chracter learn nothing from trying something he did not previously know, but successfully completed even if by luck or favorable circumstances.


Why?  Why does stabbing an orc with a knife make a d20 sorcerer better with spells?

Quote
Let me just say I love the way you ingored the majority of my post and brushed it to the side when replying.



Hardly ignored, but as you are proceeding for false assumptions, then replying more than I did was useless.  I gave a general answer.

Quote
Let's say he has the following abilities mods: Accuracy +2, Reflex +0, Toughness +2, Strength +0 Intelligence +4 Wisdom +2.


You need to read over the whole proposal, because I am not using mental stats.  That is what RPing is for.

While, again I am NOT just brushing aside your post, I am on my way to work, so this second brief reply will have to do.  I hope I have not hurt your feelings again.

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« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2006, 10:05:27 AM »
Part of this is because there was a conscious decision to suppress mental attributes due to role-playing concerns. The downside is that there's no "hook" anymore to provide benefits to characters that focus on knowledge, willpower, spell-casting, etc.

I do think that there needs to be some more thought given to XP for spell casters. I presume that damage dealing spells would earn XP using the (damage dealt) formula, and healing spells under the (points healed) formula, but what about spells like Invisibility, Fly, Charm Person, etc? (I know your magic system is different, but surely there are some spells that are neither combat, defense, skills, nor healing.)

Perhaps the dependence of the multipliers should be decoupled from the characteristics, in favor of some kind of traits? For example, most characters get a x1 multiplier for skill checks, but those who take the Skillful trait get x2, or those who take the Inapt flaw get x1/2 multiplier. This way, you can create as many traits as you need (Skillful, Combative, Mystical, Compassionate, Defensive, Physical, Sociable, whatever) to cover as many categories of experience as you feel are needed. (Unfortunately, that would add one more layer of complexity to the system.)

But anyway, that way nothing would prevent a character from taking Combative trait, regardless of which characteristics she uses or what fighting style she prefers.
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